Crossing gender/orientation boundaries

A kink is liking mm. Making 'ew discussing' comments and saying authors are weird for including any nf at all -- that is not proslash but implying het in perverse. If reversed is would clearly be homophobic, hence my use of words. I've seen it in several slash lists. not just the obvious 'I like mm' but expressions of actually disgust that a book might have any mf erotic content adulterating its pages. Of course I like slash, I write slash, I like people who read my slash--but disgust (not just disinterest) at one's own sexuality on the page seems distinctly odd.I think heterophobic is the perfect word! (wish we had a rose smiley, I'd hand you one) Yeah... Women who are straight and squicked by het sex. That goes past a kink, IMO. I don't mind preferring MM or whatever, but to be disgusted by it? I have to feel sad.

I generally have a mm sexual fetish, but I do read mf and ff etc--never say never, basically. But when I get comments that are basically heterophobic from people who are basically heterosexual I get a bit of a WTF reaction. EXACTLY the thing that is confusing the hell out of me. Every time I hear about this, it bugs me, it just doesn't ring true. If someone is saying they're turned off by het writing, I just can't believe they're really het, unless the writing they've looked at was just done exceedingly badly.

A kink is liking mm. Making 'ew discussing' comments and saying authors are weird for including any nf at all -- that is not proslash but implying het in perverse. If reversed is would clearly be homophobic, hence my use of words. I've seen it in several slash lists. not just the obvious 'I like mm' but expressions of actually disgust that a book might have any mf erotic content adulterating its pages. Of course I like slash, I write slash, I like people who read my slash--but disgust (not just disinterest) at one's own sexuality on the page seems distinctly odd. At the risk of being really really wrong, I'm tempted to believe that hetro female mm readers who find any het content disgusting are in reality gay men. I can't think of another group who would be interested in mm but squicked by het writing.

A kink is liking mm. Making 'ew discussing' comments and saying authors are weird for including any nf at all -- that is not proslash but implying het in perverse. If reversed is would clearly be homophobic, hence my use of words. I've seen it in several slash lists. not just the obvious 'I like mm' but expressions of actually disgust that a book might have any mf erotic content adulterating its pages. Of course I like slash, I write slash, I like people who read my slash--but disgust (not just disinterest) at one's own sexuality on the page seems distinctly odd. At the risk of being really really wrong, I'm tempted to believe that hetro female mm readers who find any het content disgusting are in reality gay men. I can't think of another group who would be interested in mm but squicked by het writing.You're really wrong... I wish you were right... :cry:

I like it all... ...does that make me odd?

I like it all... ...does that make me odd? I dunno, but at least I know I have some company, I find current genres pretty narrow.

I like it all... ...does that make me odd? I dunno, but at least I know I have some company, I find current genres pretty narrow.I'm right with you... I refuse to make those either/or choices. ... I'm going back through the thread, and Marguerite, you mentioned fanficcers-- They are a fixed idea bunch, for sure! Well, they are obsessed, fixated on the characters from whichever show it is that has captured their fancy. Anybody who does anything that conflicts with their world threatens their fantasy.

Maybe there's an element of attraction to power. Well, of course there is. I can understand that. I write strong women, and I know plenty of them. What bothers me is such widespread acceptance of the notion that women can't be strong. But there's no arguing with taste. I write the occasional bi or het piece, but my own foolish prejudice is against male "perfection", even though I know that not ALL body-builders and pretty boys can be narcissistic twits. Some of 'em mature into real men. Sexual preference and gender presentation run in mysterious ways. There is a sizeable population of folks born female (or "female assigned") who have transitioned, with or without -*test*-('")osterone supplements and/or surgery, so that they can live as gay men. In fact they tend to self-identify, with pride, as "faggots". There are a whole lot of layers of psychological and biological complexity here. Maybe they're closer to the het women who are only turned on by m/m action than to the lesbian community they often pass through. I have close friends among them, as well as others who can pass as men and travel with a trophy femme on their arms. I dunno. It takes all kinds, which is fine, but I still have a knee-jerk reaction when anyone anywhere on the gender spectrum seems to denigrate women, no matter who they want to fuck.

A kink is liking mm. Making 'ew discussing' comments and saying authors are weird for including any nf at all -- that is not proslash but implying het in perverse. If reversed is would clearly be homophobic, hence my use of words. I've seen it in several slash lists. not just the obvious 'I like mm' but expressions of actually disgust that a book might have any mf erotic content adulterating its pages. Of course I like slash, I write slash, I like people who read my slash--but disgust (not just disinterest) at one's own sexuality on the page seems distinctly odd. At the risk of being really really wrong, I'm tempted to believe that hetro female mm readers who find any het content disgusting are in reality gay men. I can't think of another group who would be interested in mm but squicked by het writing.You're really wrong... I wish you were right... :cry: Why would a hetero woman find het erotica disgusting, and be OK with mm? I'm not talking about a preference, here, or what turns someone on, I'm talking about antipathy.

No, I'm not seeing myself as a man or being with the character. There's not a single element of me putting myself with any of the characters. It's just a matter of what I find hot and what I find not hot. It's all about the fantasy. And with yaoi fans it's not even fantasy that's CLOSE to reality. Yaoi men are more beautiful--beautiful not handsome--than any real man could ever be. There are all sorts of bits of reality that will never make it into yaoi. It's fantasy for fantasy sake. Even the yaoi that totally feminizes the uke (dresses, make up and even using a female pronoun) will be well recieved, but het will be bashed. I mean, come on. KKM mangaka has the uke in a wedding dress for pete's sakes. At least the Haru mangaka gave both of her men tuxes. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there is well written het out there and I do have one het with a f/f moment tossed in story, but I will NOT mix that with my m/m unless the story DEMANDS it. I made that mistake ONCE. All it took was ONCE. I did it ONCE and ended up as the target for a Mary Sue watchdog group and that character was FAR from being Mary Sue. Was it a work of fanfic? Those folks are rabid as hell. As for mm, is it a voyeuristic fantasy then? You like to mentally watch them in action? How do you get from the action going on to your own pleasure? Or how do you think your fans do? It seems to me that in fantasy somewhere or other the reader inserts herself into the scene, I'm trying to understand where. I do understand fetish, it's the idea of the thing, and it's primarily masturbatory, voyeuristic enjoyment. If your target is the mm fetish audience, isn't that a pretty narrow window? Yes, it was a work of fanfiction and since I come from yaoi guess who makes up my core readerbase...those same women. When it comes to my own pleasure, it's rooted in enjoying a well-written story. Or are you asking specifically about masturbation? With my own readers, of those I've heard from, most say that if makes them want to jump their husbands then it's good stuff. LOL! I don't insert myself into the fantasy and it's not just about the sex as far as voyeur goes. Live-action porn and stroke stories do little to nothing for me. When I do get any kind of tingly from things like that, it's usually due to a section of a kiss, a particular lick or perhaps a line of dialog. It rarely has anything to do with the sex itself. I can get more "turn on power" from a BL drama cd in a language I don't understand (especially if Akira Ishida is the uke *whimper*) than I can live-action porn in English. The mind is the most powerful sex organ. M/M readers aren't that narrow of an audience. Yaoi is huge. Slash is huge. Slash has been growing since the mid-60's and yaoi has been growing for at least that long. Just because the bulk is underground, doesn't mean that it's nonexsistent. The only reason it's underground at all is that publishers are just now catching up with demand. Publishers are putting out "urgent need" requests and special calls for m/m work. My readers come from that reader pool.

Well, if they don't, that's ok, but I don't want to be boxed into a category because I'm afraid the story won't sell. I find it sexy and I find good stories sexy no matter who's doing who. Amen! :) But it what you find is sexy happens to be what is selling, then all the more better. It's not that I change my stories to meet m/m or that I refuse to write any m/f or f/f plotbunnies. I'm at a point where I don't particularly enjoy writing het anymore. I do still enjoy writing and reading f/f, but I don't get any plotbunnies that include f/f pairings.

I generally have a mm sexual fetish, but I do read mf and ff etc--never say never, basically. But when I get comments that are basically heterophobic from people who are basically heterosexual I get a bit of a WTF reaction.You mean straight women who only read slash... right? It's a dilemma. On the one hand, a kink is a kink, and I'm all for catering to kink!. But when the kink is an utter denial of what you and your body actually are-- then I start worrying about self-loathing issues. God knows, plenty of women have 'em. That's why the sociologist in me is fascinated by it and wants to study it. Perhaps it's just a matter of being bored with het? I honestly don't understand it fully.

Ya know what just hit me...maybe we're all being way too deep with this. Could it be that liking m/m while being het in real life is akin to enjoying modern life, but wanting to read historical romance or fantasy? What someone enjoys in their fiction may or may not mimick their real life regardless of the subject matter. There are people who do not enjoy reading contemporary stories. Do we wonder if they loathe the time they live in?

When it comes to my own pleasure, it's rooted in enjoying a well-written story. Or are you asking specifically about masturbation? With my own readers, of those I've heard from, most say that if makes them want to jump their husbands then it's good stuff. LOL! I don't insert myself into the fantasy and it's not just about the sex as far as voyeur goes. Live-action porn and stroke stories do little to nothing for me. When I do get any kind of tingly from things like that, it's usually due to a section of a kiss, a particular lick or perhaps a line of dialog. It rarely has anything to do with the sex itself. I can get more "turn on power" from a BL drama cd in a language I don't understand (especially if Akira Ishida is the uke *whimper*) than I can live-action porn in English. The mind is the most powerful sex organ. M/M readers aren't that narrow of an audience. Yaoi is huge. Slash is huge. Slash has been growing since the mid-60's and yaoi has been growing for at least that long. Just because the bulk is underground, doesn't mean that it's nonexsistent. The only reason it's underground at all is that publishers are just now catching up with demand. Publishers are putting out "urgent need" requests and special calls for m/m work. My readers come from that reader pool. It seems we're discussing two different things at the same time, here. One is, why do your readers like what they like? This I'm curious about, just so I understand, which should help me be a better writer. The second one is more of an irritation, it seems like some of your fans had a major problem with you inserting het into an mm story. Others seem to have encountered not just indifference but hostility, as well. Such a strong reaction has me puzzled. It sounds like a lot of your audience just sees the guys in mm as hot (they're usually fantastically beautiful in yaoi, right?). Maybe part of the fantasy is they'd like hubby to loosen up a little and be more adventurous?

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