I generally want grammar, typo and punctuation, as well as a comment on anything that's just not "right". I admit, though, when I *beta* for someone, I always ask what they want, as I too have given a thorough reading to something and been faced with grrr. ;) Sometimes I just ask for a quick once over for typos etc, and I'll say so. Those stories are usually the ones I've written for a specific market that my general beta doesn't read, and might not enjoy, therefore finding way too much fault ;)

I almost always want that established up front. Sometimes I want general impression and checking for plot holes and inconsistencies--other time I want full proofreading. Only if it is someone I have confidence in like Liz ir tav will I take on board comments of any type they think necessary.

I always ask (when doing a beta) what the person wants. As for what I want, I like details too, really.

Beta-ing, I'm on the "ask what they want first" bandwagon here, mostly so I don't waste anyone's time (mine or theirs) giving them something they can't use. When getting beta'ed, I'm generally looking for someone to point out any plot holes or inconsistencies, anything that doesn't make sense or just doesn't work for whatever reason, anything they can't follow. I want to know how it flows, if the timing's right and consistent, if it flags or gets slow anywhere. I also want to know what DOES work as far as the plot, characters, feel of the story, etc. I usually only hand something over to be beta'ed once I've proofed it as thoroughly as I can, so I also want to know about any oopsies in grammar or punctuation, but I'm not generally looking for full line edits. What I generally can't use is personal tastes. Rimming's a good example. Lots of people like it. Lots of others think it's icky. Not that I don't care if someone doesn't like reading about it, exactly, it's just that if my characters are doing it, it's clearly something they like and therefore there's no reason why they shouldn't do it just because Beta Reader A thinks it's gross. If it seems out of character, though, THAT I want to know about. I hope that makes sense... I think everyone has moments when they feel a bit defensive when someone puts the red ink all over their baby. But, for me anyway, those little twinges go away pretty fast, and I find that I can learn a great deal about how to fix the work in question, AND how to do it better next time.

When it comes to beta-reading a fic, I try my damndest to give the author as many comments and corrections as I can. I like to make a report out of it complete with opinions and questions, commentary about story flow, character inconsistancy and typos. I love the comment features of Word and the Track Changes features and use them often. When it comes down to it, I try to beta an authors story the same way I would like any of my pieces done. Trying to find a good one can be difficult (and if you find one pay them much with chocolate and praise) but then it frees up more time to write which is always good!

I don't poop on sex scenes--like rimming, or otherwise--unless they were badly written. I say exactly what I think if the plot is slow, has points that jerk me out of a good read, or just plain don't go. I suppose I expect the writer to tell me up front if they don't want anything but proofreading, otherwise I tell them my opinion, fuchsia comments everywhere. Generally I don't like to beta for someone inexperienced at writing unless they understand I'll rip their work apart for the point of making them learn to write better. I always try to encourage when I find I'm doing too much ripping. But if the ripping can't be helped, I don't avoid it either. I really don't like to beta at all unless the writer understand that if I see gross flaws I will mention them, no matter what he or she says they want.

Much as I like getting the 'oh this was great' type of feedback :) if I've asked for a beta I usually want much more detail than that. Less emphasis on typos because I can pick up *most* of those for myself but I always want comments on pacing, flow, whether the plot hangs together or is full of holes, whether the characters are believable and act 'in character' all the way through, whether there are any dire contraditions (page 3: he never ate ice cream on Sundays; page 67 - he does just that LOL). I don't see the sex scenes as being any more or less important than the rest of teh story/novel and would expect the same sort of comments back on those. In terms of giving betas, I only ever do that ON REQUEST. One, I don't have time to do detailed comments on everything I read and two, I want to be sure I'm not stepping on toes or shattering fragile confidence.

Can't remember where I read this, or I'd post the link. But the very best piece of advice I ever read about being a beta reader was this: as a beta, I'm trying to help the writer make their story the best it can be, I'm not trying to get them to write my story. That one thing really helped me when I had no idea how to be a beta. I'm still learning how to be an effective beta, I think, but when I flounder, it helps me to remember that tidbit. I can be obnoxiously opinionated about some things if I don't keep a tight reign on it. What are everyone else's helpful nuggets? Is there one thing (or several little things) that you feel help you be a better beta? now say that three times fast 8)

Gosh that's good advice, Ally. There's a few editors out there I wish would listen to it. :roll: LOL

I don't think that there needs to be a contradiction between ripping someone's story apart (to make it better) and being encouraging. My best beta reader is excellent at this; she makes me feel all warm and fuzzy at the start of her report about the good things in my story, which allows me to absorb the impact when she goes to work with her scalpel. Think of initial encouragement as a form of local anesthesia. :) Critters has an excellent set of articles on critiquing (i.e. betaing). I especially like "The Diplomatic Critiquer" and "It's Not What You Say, But How You Say It." http://www.critters.org/resources.html

I think sometimes the hazard is that people don't really know what they want from a beta reader. And sometimes, personality just doesn't mesh, and that does enter into it. What seems to us like a gentle comment on verb tense seems to them like an attack. And I freely admit I went through the same thing. I went through a lot of betas before I found one whose honesty didn't upset me, and I would say I'm not horribly touchy, just medium neurotic. I appreciated the comments of the other people, but sometimes it's like sandpaper. You know?

Yup, been there, wearing the t-shirt. LOL. Sometimes it's a personality clash, but there's also a lot of unconstructive, negative feedback that gets thrown around, particularly in RL writers' groups where it's thought of as clever or fashionable. :( I was once given some wonderful advice which I try to stick to: say 3 positive things before you start on the negative. If you can't find 3 positives, find *one*. :) I know I find it just as useful to know what does work, and why, as to know what doesn't work and why. But you should have seen my RL writers' group's faces when I suggested that! 8)

I went through a lot of betas before I found one whose honesty didn't upset me, and I would say I'm not horribly touchy, just medium neurotic. I appreciated the comments of the other people, but sometimes it's like sandpaper. You know? I know this feeling, but it only happened once that I had a "bad" reaction to a crit, and it was a crit wherein no specifics were given. In other words, the critter criticized in a big general way and did not show how to fix any one thing. I don't work well on criticize with no examples to help me with my learning curve. And this is why I try to explain my own crits and show examples when necessary. I'm still trying to figure out when being mean got cool... A good crit is not really mean. If any crit helps in the very least, no matter how rough it is to swallow, then it was good for the work. After my bad experience, I try not to assume bad intentions on the part of the critter--or beta reader, as they are called here. I just sort of sign off on any critter who generalizes, because a generalizer is pushing reviews as crits. I don't want reviews until after I'm done working on a piece.

Re: What do you expect from a beta reader?
I like for betas to do a bit of everything. >.< I know that's asking for a lot. I have a problem with skipped words, confused homonyms, continuity errors and what one beta once dubbed \"yoda sentences\" (strange my word order is sometimes, hmm, yes). I like for my betas to point out comma splices and any other grammar mistakes. Since I write m/m I really need someone to help keep an eye out for pronoun confusion. I like to hear what works for a story as well as what doesn't work. Knowing both of those can help me in the long run. What I really don't want or need is for an argument to break out when I decide to not go with the beta's recommendation or spend thirty minutes debating the subtleties of word choice when the two words are practically interchangeable. Just as my incomplete sentence isn't a personal attack against me, keeping it a phrase isn't an attack against the beta. I also like to know: 1)Is it hot? 2)Did you cry or laugh and where? 3)Did you connect with the characters? 4)Did I get preachy without justification? 5)Is the plot interesting enough to keep you between the sex scenes?